Richard Wilkins: Good morning, and welcome everyone to the first instalment of O.C. Tanner’s Culture Chat series. During this, we will hear from a range of Australia based culture leaders, influences and change-makers about what it takes to create a sustainable culture in which their people can truly thrive.
I’m Richard Wilkins, the Director of Marketing and Communications for Asia Pacific at O.C. Tanner. To kick off the series, I'm very lucky to be joined today by two people, I believe, can comfortably wear the labels of culture leader, influencer and change-maker. Leon Butler, Global Manager Performance & Reward, and Fiona Wynn, Director of Talent & Capability at Treasury Wine Estates.
Now, Leon and Fiona will share their insights on why prioritising a culture of courage, care, and inclusion has been so important to the TWE business both pre and during the pandemic. Leon and Fiona, welcome to you both.
Leon Butler: Morning, welcome.
Fiona Wynn: Thanks Richard, great to join you.
Richard Wilkins: Now a reminder to everyone that if you have any questions for Leon and Fiona, as Caitlin put in the chat, please submit them via the Q&A feature, and we'll do our best to get to them in the time we have available.
To frame today's discussion, I want to start by quoting some statistics from O.C. Tanner's 2022 Global Culture Report, which finds that employees with strong connections to their teams, leaders and organisations are more likely to thrive and do great work.
In fact, they are likely to be 71x more satisfied with their employee experience, 37x more likely to be satisfied with their organisation's culture, 30x more likely to produce great work and 96% less likely to experience burnout.
I want to also quote from the 2021 Global Culture Report, which is based on research conducted as the effects of the pandemic were taking hold, which told us that those organisations with thriving work cultures weather the storm much better than those organisations with non-thriving cultures. For those organisations with thriving work cultures, covid-19 caused only a 1% drop in engagement compared to a 52% drop in engagement for those organisations with non-thriving cultures.
It's a similar story when we look at retention, a topic I’m sure is keeping more than one or two of our viewers up at night. Organisations with thriving work cultures experienced a 3% drop in retention versus a 53% drop for organisations with non-thriving cultures.
These statistics seem pertinent to today's discussion as TWE appears to have navigated the myriad pandemic-related challenges better than most. On that note, Leon, I'll start with you. Perhaps you can start by telling us how you described the TWE culture pre-pandemic?
Leon Butler: Yea, thanks, Richard. So just for context, I joined Treasury in mid-2019, so my time with Treasury pre-pandemic was reasonably short. What I found useful when I was reflecting on my time, and the culture at that point was to look back at what we called our growth behaviours which were effectively our company values.
They were the things that we were measured on from a performance perspective that we celebrated from our recognition perspective, and those growth behaviours were very performance-related - very focused on delivery and execution.
I won't go through all of them, but to give you a couple of examples, one of those growth behaviours was called 'Be Focused', around sequencing work and resources to complete high priority tasks and activities. We had another growth behaviour that looked at building trust, and it was focused on agreeing on clear deliverables with your colleagues and doing what you say you're going to do.
So, those growth behaviours were very focused on performance and what translated to, from a company culture point of view, was a company and a culture that was very high performing, which set an expectation of our employees that there was a high-performance culture within the organisation.
Some of the words that you could use to describe it [TWE] would be competitive and high performing. I think that also created stress for our employees, perhaps because we didn't have some of those underlying care elements that also need to go with that high-performance culture. So, I think my reflection is probably that there was that high-performance culture at that point in time pre-pandemic.
Richard Wilkins: That's really good insight. From our previous discussions, you talked about the fact that you have that performance culture. While the stress isn't ideal, you talked about some of the cultural attitudes and initiatives that you had in place that would set you up for the ensuing two years to handle those challenges. Do you want to talk to some of those?
Leon Butler: I think a lot of that was in the works pre-pandemic, which I think also helped us. So, for those who aren't familiar with TWE, we had a change in leadership early in the pandemic. With that change in leadership, our new leader had a new vision for the company that he wanted to lead, that reinforced and wanted to build on those elements of our existing culture around that high-performance nature. So, take those high-performing pieces and maintain that but start to re-emphasise and build on some of those care elements.
So, starting to look at how we can ensure that we're an inclusive and diverse workforce, like how we can make sure that people feel comfortable sharing courageous/innovative/entrepreneurial ideas? I think a lot of those things were in the works pre-pandemic.
When the pandemic hit, and we had that leadership change and those new values came into play, I think that then set us up to navigate some of those challenges by introducing those key elements but not removing the high-performance components that were so important to the business.
Richard Wilkins: I want to come back and dig into the change of leadership in a bit more depth in a couple of minutes and dig into that renewed focus on providing the cultural support to that performance focus.
But first. Fiona, you've been with the organisation for almost a year, so you can jump in here as well, and I'm sure some of these will be very familiar to our audience. What are some of the biggest challenges TWE has experienced over the past two years? What we're you hearing from your leaders? What we're you hearing from your people?
Fiona Wynn: Yeah, I’m happy to jump in Leon. One of the very first things that I did when I joined was basically interviewed several of our senior leaders, many of them at all different levels. What I was curious to understand more was around what is the culture that's really permeating today and to what extent do we really live our TWE DNA, which are these values that we ascribe to.
What really came through was that absolutely there is this aspiration to live our TWE DNA, and just to articulate those quickly they are: we bring our whole selves, we are courageous and we deliver together - which are lovely statements.
But ultimately what we were understanding from a challenge perspective was just the sheer amount of change that had taken place in the proceeding sort of 18 months when I joined a year ago. We had a change in CEO, a change in our executive leadership team, we had a huge change with respect to China and tariffs on our wine/exports.
There was the pandemic, so this huge transition to people working from home, changes in expectations around flexibility and many other business-related external factors that were impacting people. Leon and I had this conversation the other day about internally driving so many new initiatives, like “let's introduce these new programs, these new initiatives”.
There was a lot of noise and so filtering through the noise and helping people to clarify and understand what it is we're trying to achieve here as a business, what is the change path that we're on. For leaders to help their people connect to that story of where we've been, where we are today and where we're going was certainly a big challenge - and it’s certainly coming through in some of the data points that we're collecting at the moment.
Richard Wilkins:
Leon did you want to add to that?
Leon Butler: I think the only other thing that I would add to it, is that with that overwhelming amount of change and hearing that feedback from employees, there were a lot of positive things coming through, but there was just so much coming through.
I think what was important was the consistency of our message throughout the change. So, whether it was a change to our company values, our performance ratings or the way that we do recognition. Everything was tied together and had the underlying TWE DNA message throughout, and I think that was important to help combat some of that feeling of overwhelmedness because people were hearing that same consistent message through all those different play points.
So, I think that helped people to just understand and gain clarity of that message, even though there was so much noise happening, and all these things happening, there was a clarity to it with that underlying message.
Richard Wilkins: Yeah, that level of clarity was critical for a lot of organisations. Now you both mentioned the TWE DNA. I’d like to talk about that for a minute. Did that replace the growth behaviours that you mentioned earlier Leon? Or did it augment them?
Leon Butler: It fundamentally replaced them, but the idea was that it [the TWE DNA] would take those elements from our growth behaviours that we wanted to maintain and clarify them a little bit more. Make them a little bit easier to understand, more tangible, but at the same time, build on some of those things that weren't in our growth behaviours. Some of those care elements, that weren’t there that we really wanted to grow to improve our culture.
So, things like a strong focus on inclusiveness and diversity and allowing people to bring their whole selves to work, were so evident in our growth behaviours and were brought into our TWE DNA.
Fiona Wynn: It's more human. It's funny, I’ve reviewed the growth behaviours and seen them, and they are very much performance-driven, as Leon has described. They are very much around “we are an execution business and therefore everything we do is about short-term metrics, and we must deliver at all costs”.
To me, the TWE DNA is almost the inverse of that. They’ve really sharpened up the focus on care and the focus on empathy for people and the expression of individuality that inclusion and, ultimately, I guess the thread that feeds through all of those is psychological safety.
Because, when we talk about people bringing their whole selves or people being courageous the implicit assumption there is that we must have psychological safety for that to be true. My first observation was that comes from a position of privilege to even say “Oh, I can bring my whole self”. That's a very privileged position that perhaps assumes that maybe you don't come from a background that is underrepresented, for example, who has faced adversity.
So, I think that was relatively bold to say, “Well, perhaps we're not 100% there yet, but we absolutely put a light on the hill”. We want our people to genuinely bring their whole selves and that's going to require us to lead differently that's going to require us to show up differently. To really reinforce the behaviours in a different way, perhaps, than what we've seen before.
So, to me, it was a call to action, and I'm really impressed by them, and I can see how deeply they've been embedded in the conversation at Treasury.
Richard Wilkins: Do you think this emphasis on care and inclusion was a fundamental cultural shift for TWE? Or do you think it was a natural progression of the path in which you already headed?
Fiona Wynn: My sense from a lot of interviews and survey data that I've captured throughout my time here is that there was underlying care. It is a real people and networked organisation. People have very strong relationships with one another, many people here have worked together, in previous organisations, and therefore very relationship-based.
However, the fact that it was such a strong performance culture and such a focus on execution and delivery. It did mean that there was a need to be much more explicit in the need to say, “we need to show more care,” and the pandemic almost gave up the perfect reason for that. So, the way I look at it, if you just think about the X and Y axis of a graph. Imagine the Y-axis being performance and the X-axis being care or people. My observation would be that the major emphasis or cultural tone of the business was high on performance and low on care – and that was really the mindset from the top.
What has happened with the change in leadership is the need to shift and increase that level of care. If you have looked at Amy Edmondson’s work on psychological safety, you’ll know it’s that aspect where you have high levels of care or high psychological safety and high levels of performance and accountability. That's when you get to the sweet spot. That's when you are driving those courageous conversations. That ability to innovate, that capacity for people to challenge the status quo, to provide courageous feedback, come up with new ideas and test and learn. Because they feel safe to do so, but they also feel a sense of accountability around “I just want to make this organisation even better than it is today”.
So, it's not about all care, no performance. It's absolutely having both, and so I think that's what's been really strengthened over the past while. It's just a really evident story to me anyway.
Richard Wilkins: Yeah, striking that balance sounds like the Holy Grail, doesn't it? That’s a fairly good aspiration.
Now you talked about it coming from the top and about the change in leadership being a critical turning point. In terms of emphasising inclusion, care and courage. We've all experienced a lot of times when the leaders come in with a brand-new vision, but perhaps it hasn't translated to the day to day for people. So, these increased priorities around courage, care and inclusion, what do they look like in practical terms, for your people?
Fiona Wynn: Leon, do you want to take that one?
Leon Butler: Yeah, sure. So, I can give a few practical examples of things that we do as a business. But then also more organisational things as well, in terms of the way people will have seen and are seeing the change.
So, the vision of our new CEO was certainly informed by his 10 years working within the business, so he had a good understanding of the culture, as it was at the moment. But it was also influenced by input from our executive leadership team and our global leadership team. So, that kind of inclusion and the journey helped embed those new values and emphasise the way the culture or the way that we wanted to change the culture.
From a practical sense, there's a few things that we've also introduced in the last couple of years that have made a big difference. So, we, from an inclusion and diversity point of view, started what we call “Employee Resource Groups” or ERG’s which are employee-led groups that focus on areas of diversity within our business. So, they're very “grassroots” because anyone who sees a need can set one up, get people and pull them together to create those ERG's and they focus on things. Like, we have a 'TWE enable group’ which focuses on our employees who are living and working with a disability, ‘TWE mosaic’ which looks at people from different cultural backgrounds. Those diversity initiatives, and those inclusion initiatives were really allowed, as a result of this new focus on D&I and our TWE DNA. Again, it's something that's led by employees, so they're able to bring and create those groups.
There's other smaller practical things that we did as well, which a lot of other organisations would have done as well, in terms of providing additional day's leave and sick leave. Things like that to help support and provide that care element, throughout the pandemic, but also just in terms of embedding our TWE DNA.
Fiona Wynn: We also have “find your FLEX policy”, there's a whole bunch of different really clear policies and programs that have come, that I think are very visible and show people that yes, we want you to be supported. That piece around care.
The other piece I’d say that's less formal - because that's almost your formal policy type things, I always think about what's the informal things that are happening in the organisation, because often they're the things that send the signals of what is truly accepted and what is the way that we want to be. I’d honestly say observing Tim, our CEO, in so many different forums. There's been a lot of communication and a lot of access to our senior leaders.
The way that Tim [TWE’s CEO] relates to other people it's very human, very authentic and real, and what that has done is set a tone of “hey we want you to speak up, we want you to be courageous, give me feedback, I want to hear it and we're going to actually do something about it”.
So, I think that's really powerful. Even last year, there were some safety incidents and Tim [TWE’s CEO] recorded a video that was very heartfelt and quite impactful. For him to talk about “we can't continue to have any safety incidents, everyone matters here, and we need to make sure that we're taking genuine care of our people. Here's what I need you all to do. We need to call out any potential hazards upfront.” This is really reflecting our frontline workforce, who are out there on tractors, who are picking vines, picking grapes, etc. They are the ones that are facing more physical hazards and he just wanted to make sure that people heard how important that was to him and not to think of that as a secondary issue because it's not.
Richard Wilkins: You certainly can't underestimate those clear signals coming from the very top. Sounds like a very obvious thing to say, but it doesn't always happen. On that point, Fiona, you talked about the difficulty or the challenge in getting leaders on board with this renewed cultural focus and you've alluded to the fact that you've got quite a diverse workforce. You've got people out in fields on tractors, you've got people in the office. How did you get leaders engaged in this shift to strengthen the culture? How do you get them all on the same page?
Fiona Wynn: There's been a lot of different work since I’ve come in. There's now a group called our “Global Leadership Group” which for all intents and purposes is our top 80 leaders. So, you've got your executive leadership team and then this broader leadership group.
Tim and the executive leadership team have brought the global leadership group together, quite frequently, and in those conversations, we are able to really talk about what's actually going on. Understand, think about and set expectations for how we show up as enterprise leaders. So that's been a real pivot, as opposed to feeling like functional leaders. It's like, how might we enable everyone in our global leadership group to be empowered to think of themselves as an enterprise leader.
One thing we've done recently is introduced a set of leadership attributes, which is effectively a leadership capability framework, but we call them our attributes. These are designed to basically equip all leaders, and everyone can be a leader, you can be a leader at any moment, in a conversation where something happens or where there's a potential safety hazard, you're the one that needs to stand up because you're the one that's there.
But, particularly for our global leaders, we wanted them to understand the expectations of them as leaders, “these are the things that we want you to be doing and showing up as, this is what really good leadership looks like and what it doesn't look like”.
Those things, if we all do those, will actually drive our TWE DNA. So, they're very much linked to driving our culture and that's the ongoing conversation that we're having with our leaders. We're also investing in development for our leadership group as well.
Richard Wilkins: Right and a follow on from that, to move to a topic which is obviously dear to my heart, employee recognition.
So TWE, Leon, you were obviously driving this. Going back 18 months. Your “Cellarbrate” recognition program and “Vintage Awards” career celebration program were re-launched in 2020. What was the rationale behind the timing, and what has recognition meant to TWE over the past 12 to 18 months?
Leon Butler: From a timing perspective, it was maybe a little bit fortuities itself actually.
So, we already had a recognition program in place, which had been in place for a couple of years, but it was very manual. So, it was internally administered, and it was just ready for a refresh so we were looking for something that was going to take away some of that admin burden and be a little bit more sophisticated. But also, refresh the program.
Then really what came about, was that we learned we were going to have a change in our company values in terms of introducing the TWE DNA. We learned that we were going to have a new CEO coming in. So, all of those things combined together so that we could launch that recognition program from one July when the new CEO came into play. And, really have it as one consistent recognition platform, where we're saying, “these are the new values and here's a recognition platform that we're going to use to celebrate people who demonstrate those values”.
Reinforcing it, re-embedding it and, at the same time, almost having something that our new CEO can also introduce to say, “we want to recognise those behaviours” and we really want to ramp up employee recognition and have that as a platform for him to be able to introduce to the business.
In a sense, the stars all aligned, from a timing point of view, and it worked out really well because we were able to link all of those elements together.
Richard Wilkins: Great. You know, we see a lot of TWE employees on social media, particularly talking about their career celebration moments and significant milestones. Sometimes that can feel a little bit forced and working in marketing I know the conversations that go on around some of those things.
But there's a level of authenticity that comes through in those posts and it genuinely feels like people are really closely connected to the organisation and I’m interested in those career celebration moments in particular. What have you heard from employees about that? What what's the impact you’ve seen?
Leon Butler: It's been a natural progression of recognition and celebration because we had some recognition moments before we introduce the program, but they probably were a little bit underwhelming. So, what this has enabled us to do is to really focus and celebrate people who have spent significant amounts of time working with the business and we have quite long-tenured employees as well. So, there are a lot of people in the business who are at that 20 -25 year mark or 10-15 who have spent a significant amount of time working for an organisation.
Introducing those ‘Vintage Awards’, which is what we call our service awards or our tenure awards, has enabled us to do justice and really recognise the impacts that they've had on the business and thank them for their contribution over the years. So, I think that's why it comes across as a really genuine and authentic appreciation for that recognition because we are doing it in a way that really celebrates the amount of contribution that they've made to the business.
Richard Wilkins: That focus on celebration seems to have extended to the number of annual awards that TWE has in place. I know that recently you've introduced a broader suite of awards to the existing CEO awards. You have the ‘Dan Townsend’ and ‘Mary Penfold’ awards, which are obviously very significant figures in TWE’s history.
But the awards have expanded to include things such as inclusion, equity, diversity, innovation, brighter future award, and emerging leader award. These all seem to really capture that inclusion aspect, but I'm interested in what drove the expansion of those awards.
Leon Butler: This has kind of grown and grown in terms of our recognition program but, again, that was really led by our leadership team who wanted some additional awards to be able to recognise some of those other behaviours that really link into our strategy.
So, things like our CEO award and our ‘Dan Townsend’ award, which is a sales excellence award, those are awards which are at the top of our awards suite and recognise those people who really are the top performers.
What we wanted to be able to do is recognise people throughout the business who were demonstrating elements of what we call our ‘Game Plan’, which is our company strategy, that otherwise would be hidden gems or people who aren’t always as visible. So, they might not be working on the most high-profile projects, but they are those people who live and breathe different elements of our ‘Game Plan’ within their role and we wanted a way to be able to celebrate those people for what they do, one on a day-to-day basis.
So, that that came as an initiative from our leadership team and to be able to expand the program to include those additional awards, has been fantastic because it's given us a whole suite of nominations, that we can celebrate people for.
Richard Wilkins: This sounds like there's so many great things going on. Fiona one of the big questions that always gets asked is how do you measure the impact of these initiatives? It's probably something that keeps a lot of people, who are viewing today, up at night. But how have you been able to measure the impact of some of this renewed cultural focus at TWE?
Fiona Wynn: Good question. For specific initiatives, there's specific measures, but overall, what I found really interesting is we just ran our recent engagement and inclusion survey which we're doing on an annual basis.
This is only our second engagement and inclusion survey run here, which is a little bit surprising to me I’ve come from a background of always doing lots of engagement surveys. To me, even the nature of going out and surveying our people shows we really care about our people's perspectives, and we want to shape this culture with our people.
One of the highest rating factors, when you look at all our results, for our organisation is safety and care. So, it was really evident how people feel, typically, that the organisation genuinely cares about their safety, making good efforts around workplace flexibility, that managers are showing that they genuinely care about our people as human beings and not just as employees. All those sorts of things are really telling and really interesting for us to show that that piece around care is improving.
I know this is not an explicit measure itself, but the participation rate in our survey this year went up by 26% which is huge. What that really reflects is that more and more of our frontline workforce are participating this year and we think that's a really good sign of increasing trust.
Basically, because of last year’s survey, we did some things out of that. We took on board the feedback and took some tangible actions and people felt some change. People are now more inclined to provide their feedback. So, we're really amazed that even though we've increased our population or our sample this year of people responding to the survey, our engagement actually went up.
Despite the fact that last year perhaps we had a covid bump. People were, last year, finding that engagement was up slightly higher for a time of uncertainty when people were clinging to the certainty of the organisation that they were currently working for. The fact that we've opened it up and got more and more people responding is a fantastic story. That we've increased engagement by a couple of points this year, despite having many more people responding.
Richard Wilkins: That's a pretty impressive result. Did you have anything to add, Leon, from a measurement perspective?
Leon Butler: The other point I’d add is around measuring our recognition as well, and simple metrics. In terms of participation, being able to see the number of nominations coming through the different awards and opening that up so that people can nominate year-round. So, it's not just at one point in time. I think that shows that people are thinking about it and thinking about those opportunities to recognise people when they display those behaviours as well. It's a simple metric, but the fact that it's going up is a really good indicator that people are not only feeling comfortable with those different awards but also looking for opportunities to recognise their peers and colleagues as well.
Richard Wilkins: Excellent. So, a question for both of you. What are your main cultural priorities for the rest of 2022 and beyond?
Fiona Wynn: So, our cultural priorities are continuing to really invest in building out our culture as described by our TWE DNA.
So, we'll be doing a lot of work with our senior leadership group on developing their capacity to communicate our vision for the future, help connect every single person in our organisation to where we're going and understanding their contribution to our strategy and our vision for the future.
That's going to be absolutely huge, so really driving capability around those leadership attributes that I described before, it's going to be really important. But specifically, it's going to be around driving that culture of inclusion, courage and collaboration through a whole bunch of different interventions and things that we're doing.
I think the TWE DNA I probably best articulates the “Light on the Hill” and then we will continue to do that. Another element of that is innovation culture, as well, so we're doing a whole lot of work around driving innovation culture. I would say that this effort we've done around psychological safety and building that sense of care amongst our workforce is absolutely critical to that because it's going to mean that our people are more likely to take risks. To put their head above the parapet, make different suggestions, try new things and test and learn.
So, that's going to be absolutely critical as we build innovation capability, the culture will be driven behind that to support that capability as well.
Leon Butler: I couldn't really say it better myself. I think the only other point I would add to that, which underpins a lot of that, is around feedback and looking at ways that we can encourage people both to give and receive more feedback throughout the business. Whether it's on courageous conversations, whether it's around innovative ideas or through recognition. Just encouraging more and more of that two-way feedback as well throughout the organisation.
Richard Wilkins: Final question. I could quite happily talk to you both for another two hours about the culture at TWE, it's a great story. I think at the moment we're in an interesting phase where I don't think we can quite call it post-pandemic but we're still trying to find our way in terms of hybrid work and the great resignation is very real for a lot of industries.
I think your focus on creating a sustainable culture of courage, care and inclusion is fantastic and it will address a lot of those things along the way, but if you could share one final piece of advice for our audience today about what it takes to create that that cultural focus. What would it be?
Fiona Wynn: When I think about that question, I think about the word you've used “sustainable”. How do you actually have sustainable change over time, and to me, it's about being purposeful.
It's [sustainable change] not being passive it's being very active and so really understanding, where is it we're trying to head and then, what are the things we're doing to actually drive that. Constantly measuring, and constantly checking in is really important, and making sure that the tone from the top is consistent. I think that's a really important piece that people are hearing and seeing and experiencing repeated signals that this is the culture we're trying to cultivate, and “this is the experience that I’m going to have”.
The other piece I think about is that we often spend so much time, and you talked about marketing before and people putting messages on LinkedIn, we often focus so much on our external employee value proposition and thinking about how can we be the best brand so that we can hire new talent, which is so important. But the piece that we should not ever forget is about, and this is in the light of the great resignation as well, how might we rehire our existing employees.
So how do we think about the employee value proposition, the experience design for the people that we have here today? Because it's far simpler to try and re-motivate, reenergise the people that we already have, that have had a commitment to this organisation, who have made a choice to join us, we need to have a really good focus on the employee experience design.
So that would be my advice, thinking about what all those touchpoints are, those elements, those experience moments that people have in your organisation and thinking about how can we continuously check-in to make sure that these experiences are actually what we want them to be. Again, reinforcing the culture we're trying to create.
Ensuring that people want to make an active choice every few months, “Yes, I want to continue to stay at this organisation”, “Yes, I feel connected to this organisation, and I’m continuously engaged”. So, that would be my thoughts, Richard.
Richard Wilkins: How do you rehire your own people? That’s a great lens. Leon, any final words from you?
Leon Butler: I draw on that word sustainable as well and build on what Fiona said. I mentioned that earlier as well, the importance of having that consistent message. Whether it is through recognition, whether it's through your onboarding programs, and all of those different moments in the employee life cycle. Making sure that the message is consistent, and that people are hearing that same thing, because that helps build trust in that message, but it also just helps to embed that cultural message throughout your organisation.
For me, the key important message is that consistency and embedding it through all of those different elements throughout the business.
Richard Wilkins: Fantastic Thank you, unfortunately, regrettably, that is all we have time for today.
A big thank you to everyone who's joined us today and especially a big thank you to both Leon and Fiona for so generously sharing your time. Your insights have been fantastic and I’m sure others would agree.
Now if you'd like to know more about the O.C. tanner Global Culture Report I referenced in my introduction. You can visit octanner.com or you can scan the QR code that's up on your screen at the moment. Caitlin has just provided a link in the chat there for anyone who's interested.
Thank you once again and enjoy the rest of your day.
